Talk:Australia

Native languages in Infobox

I suggest that we add a "native languages" section in the Infobox like what is in the Infobox in the article about India. In this section it would say "250 languages" wiki linked to the Australian Aboriginal languages article. Would do you think? Zakary2012 (talk) 08:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I reverted this because it has been discussed before and the consensus was that it is a complex issue which is best discussed in the article rather than the info box. Different sources give different estimates of the number of Indigenous languages because there is no agreement on what is a distinct language and what is a dialect. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:42, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Have you got a link to that discussion? I wasn't able to track it down from a cursory search.

With the obvious caveat that I haven't read the previous discussion mentioned though, I do think it would be worthwhile having some recognition to the presence of indigenous languages across the country. Perhaps if the number itself is the ambiguous part, we could mention a range (and include a note if necessary to explain that the total number is up for debate?) Turnagra (talk) 00:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Where is this supposed discussion then because I can't find it anywhere? It would be great if you could actually back up your claims and give a link to the discussion you have referenced. Zakary2012 (talk) 05:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia/Archive 21#Languages of Australia. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm assuming it's this discussion? That doesn't really seem like something super strong and worthy of protecting if there is a better discussion that results in an inclusion - I'm seeing a lot of single line comments from low-use accounts rather than actual discussion.

I totally understand the issue with the range of different figures, but I think that's easily remedied by giving a range in the infobox as mentioned and don't see that as grounds to not include something there. Turnagra (talk) 07:36, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The Infobox will never contain full details of native languages. That's no what Infoboexs do. Create a brief but accurate summary of the situation, and propose it here. HiLo48 (talk) 07:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not proposing full details. If you read my message, what I'm proposing is we give a range, and perhaps an explanatory note. For example, that section could say "250 - 363 languages" with a note that says something along the lines of "Different sources give widely differing figures, primarily based on how the terms "language" and "dialect" are defined and grouped", as per the equivalent in the infobox on the India article. Turnagra (talk) 08:00, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

What about the tens of thousands who speak Mandarin almost exclusively as an actively used first language? Or Korean? Or...? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know how that's relevant to a section of the infobox entitled "Native languages". Turnagra (talk) 08:28, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

It's relevant because if we put in a range of indigenous languages (not "native" languages) with a complicated footnote then someone else will insist that also add all the "community" languages spoken in Australia with a complicated footnote. This isn't speculation, it has happened in the recent past and was discussed and rejected. The info box is supposed to be a quick summary of key information from the article. It is not supposed to include complex information which is best explained in prose in the article. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. By the way, estimates of living indigenous languages actually ranges from about 20 upwards. The 250 figure is the estimated number of languages at the time of European settlement. The high number of 300 plus are mostly dialects and mostly not living languages. I just don't see the value of a ranged figure such as 20 to 300 plus. It's better to read the article to see the complications. But I tend to be an info box minimalist. Let's see what others think. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Apologies, I was going off the section in the India page and didn't realise the term could be changed. But I don't think that's really a concern, there's a pretty clear delineation between indigenous languages and minority introduced languages of specific communities. As for the point about range, I'm sure there would be enough of an agreed upon main range - there will absolutely always be outliers in both directions, but we should look at the overall number. Alternatively we could just be clear that we're basing it off a single authoritative source but acknowledge that there is discrepancy and disagreement on the number - the 2018-19 National Indigenous Languages Survey seems like it could be a decent option, which found 123 languages being spoken. Turnagra (talk) 09:54, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure adding more language links meets infoboxpurpose, but if it is added I would not include the range. See Brazil for example, which provides a link without a number to its recognized indigenous languages. CMD (talk) 10:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

@Zakary2012 I reverted your edit. Please don't try to force through your preferred version of the infobox while the issue is still under discussion. You have no consensus for your proposal. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:47, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

I support changing the infobox. There's no consensus here for excluding indigenous languages from it and referencing a prior discussion on it, while useful, doesn't mean that the discussion is closed or that the consensus has remained as it was. It's clear from the discussion here and prior that the consensus is not for it to remain as is, otherwise we wouldn't keep having the discussion.

I agree with the proposal for including an indigenous language estimate range, even if it took the lower figure and said upwards of twenty, that would be better than it as it is.

The discussion on including community languages isn't really relevant. The fact that it has come up previously doesn't change the proposal to include indigenous languages, it's an entirely separate issue. Cbrfield (talk) 14:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

As an aside, @Turnagra and @Zakary2012 manage to ask the exact same question; of whether they can have a link to the discussion, but Turnagra asks it very politely and respectfully and Zakary asks it in an accusatory and rude way. Would be nice if we could all be respectful in discussions like this. GraziePrego (talk) 07:56, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request

Request to add the Australian Royal Anthem, "God Save The King", underneath the already listed Australian National Anthem as they are both official anthems of Australia and thus should both be included. It is shown that they are both official anthems on this webpage on the official government website for the "Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet: https://www.pmc.gov.au/honours-and-symbols/australian-national-symbols/australian-national-anthem

As Australia is still a Monarchy and does retain an official Royal Anthem I firmly believe that the Wikipedia article for it should include the Royal Anthem. Aggressively Monarchist Australian (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The Royal Anthem is in the info box under note 1. Advance Australia Fair is the only official national anthem. God Save the King is only played at official functions when a member of the royal family is present. At official events, sporting events, schools, ceremonies etc. Advance Australia Fair would be played hundreds of times more often than God Save the King. Giving it equal prominence in the info box would be false balance WP:BALANCE. And the info box is only meant to summarise key facts.WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Area sources in Infobox needs fixing

Hello all

The same source is cited three times in the area section of the info box. I tried to fix it but I am no good at source code and I keep making mistakes which wreck the info box. The Geography Australia sources only needs to be cited once.

Thanks Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Aemilius Adolphin: Yeah, there's a few repeated sources in the article (not surprising for an article that's developed over such a long period). I started working on this last night but want to get a working copy on a computer before I make a mess. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 03:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, I will leave it in your capable hands! Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:41, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to include an Indigenous name for Australia.

Previously titled: Place holder of information for future edit: Aboriginal Names for Australia

I would like to propose the inclusion of an Indigenous Australian name in the introductory summary and also hopefully a section within the main article.

If we are to keep the tradition of exonyms, a strong proposal is outlined later in the post. However, an endonym would be the strongest symbolically. All the strongest endonyms for Australia in the various languages are defined as "ground; land" and they are:

• Biik: referenced in 34,900 academic articles thus biggest candidate. (Melbourne nation)
  • Kurrek: 713 academic articles (rural Victoria).

• Barna: referenced almost equally at 34,600. However, upon review, it seems to have grown to become a reference specifically to the Nation of Western Australia, i.e. Perth coast until the western state boarder, the size of NSW).

• Uthuru: Strongest symbolic candidate as it is the word associated with the central inland nation around Uluru. But I can only find tabloid and social media references of this name, so far none in academia.

Torres Strait Islands Nations as the Primary Candidate for Exonym source:

Keo Deudai: (Out Back — Back Mainland)

• First Primary Candidate
  • Origin: Miriam language of The Torres Strait Islands
  • Meaning: Back Mainland, beyond the regions of the TSI'der people
  • Academic Recognition: Consensus Established. ~900 academic publications inclusive of variations (google scholar). Examples:
    • (Page 28), Sharp, Nonie., "Stars of Tagai: The Torres Strait Islanders", Aboriginal Studies Press, 1993. (ISBN: 9780855752385)
    • (Page 123, Document page 3) Shnukal, Anna. "From monolingualism to multilingualism in Australia’s Torres Strait island communities" International Journal of the Sociology of Language, vol. 1995, no. 113, 1995, pp. 121-136. https://doi.org/10.1515/ijsl.1995.113.121
    • John Doolah: Lecturer in Indigenous Education @ Melbourne University
      • Doolah, John., "The Stories Behind the Torres Strait Islander Migration Myth: the journey of the sap/bethey." (2021). http://hdl.handle.net/1959.13/1432705
        • Explicit study of Keo Deudai
        • Keo Deudai / Kie Daudie (latter phonetically preferred): Greater backmainland beyond (inclusively) TSI ancestral territory
        • Zenadth Kes: Primary inhabited TSI ancestral Territory [islands] (Keo Deudai: backmainland, secondary TSI ancestral backmainland, Kie Daudie: backmainland beyond TSI ancestral territory)
      • Doolah, J., 2015. Decolonising the migration and urbanisation of Torres Strait Islanders (Ailan pipel) from the Torres Straits to mainland Australia between the 1960s and 1970s.
        • Kie Daudie: exclusively used
        • Page xvii, document page 17 | Page 47, document page 70

Context & follow up candidate for Keo Deudai:

• Daudai

Daudai (Daudie, Deudai/Deudie), is the primary word used among the Torres Strait Islands (TSI / TSI'der [islander]) people and neighbouring nations which means Mainland (ancestral), denoting the lands themselves. While Zenadth Kes is the territory/region inclusive of waters and lands. Then Papua New Guinea (PNG) is the Op Deudai — Face (front) mainland while Cape York (tip of Australian mainland) and beyond is Keo Daudai — back mainland, inclusive of the TSI ancestral territory of the mainland. Kie Daudie is sometimes used in reference to the mainland beyond the TSI ancestral nation, exclusively.

Keo Deudai (back mainland) and its variations is the primary variation used in publications to refer to Australia as a whole. The primary driver of variation is the micro-dialects and accents in competition with outside observers (whom lack phonetic-linguistic expertise) attempting to document local history using the english phonetic alphabet where linguistic accuracy is not the primary focus. Additionally, the micro-dialects/accents themselves are also still in revitalisation from the colonial genocide inflicted upon in the past whom are still yet to receive reparations.

Second Primary Candidate:

• Ladaigal: (phonetically easier and more inclusive, supported by John Doolah)
  • Meaning: Aboriginal people, non-TSI.
  • Use: Often used in myth telling of the TSI journey from PNG
    • Ladaigal Country: is the more accurate expression of aboriginal land, Ladaigal alone is and can be used interchangeably between aboriginal people and aboriginal land.
  • https://ia801603.us.archive.org/13/items/reportsofcambrid03hadd/reportsofcambrid03hadd.pdf
    • Cambridge Anthropological Expedition to Torres Straits (1898) and Hodes, Jeremy. Index to the Reports of the Cambridge Anthropological Expedition to Torres Straits and Haddon, Alfred C. (Alfred Cort), 1855-1940 and Ray, Sidney Herbert, 1858-1939. Linguistics. Reports of the Cambridge Anthropological Expedition to Torres Straits University Press Cambridge 1901
    • CATALOGUE PERSISTENT IDENTIFIER: https://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn458355

... to be continued Bro The Man (talk) 04:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bro The Man Hello there. This isn't the place to put notes or draft content. Please use your sandbox for this. If you have a specific proposal to improve this article please start a discussion here.

Thanks Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, that was the intention, to propose the inclusion of an Indigenous Australian name in the introductory summary and also hopefully a section within the main article. I'll take your advice onboard and re-edited the topic name to "Proposal to include an Indigenous name for Australia." Bro The Man (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no indigenous name for Australia and it's not our place to invent one. I T B F 📢 09:27, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I just provided evidence that there is one, I hope we can arrive to a consensus as to which one is more appropriate. Bro The Man (talk) 10:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bro The Man sounds interesting, however any of those choices would be us assigning a name when no one name exists. GraziePrego (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest! I agree, a consensus needs to be achieved from available resources. Bro The Man (talk) 10:16, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

You misunderstand how this works. It is not up to editors to assign an Indigenous name to Australia out of a field of candidates proposed by an editor; Wikipedia is supposed to follow established practice. If a single Indigenous name for Australia ever emerges it will gain wide currency in official publications, the media and everyday use. We won't have to choose one; it will choose itself. Until this happens Australia will remain the only name for Australia in the English language Wikipedia. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

But two names already have recognition is 35,000 publications each? Bro The Man (talk) 12:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The one you say is in 35,000 publications is just the "Melbourne nation", not even the whole of Australia. Aemilius is quite right, it is not up to us to weigh the options and choose a name- a name will only be suitable for this article when it is in common knowledge and use. GraziePrego (talk) 12:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Frontier wars paragraph

I made a change to the previously discussed sentence on the Frontier Wars in order to change the more passive word "Indigenous people died" to "Indigenous people were killed" and similarly change the passive "others were dispossessed" with the active "settlers dispossessed others" as I believe the active is clearer and reads better without changing the underlying meaning of the sentence. After this, there have been further changes by @pastelilac and @Willthorpe that I think deserve discussion.

While I supported the change to split the sentence to read "Those who survived were dispossessed by colonists of their traditional lands", I disagree with the more substantial change to "As settlement expanded, frontier conflicts claimed thousands of lives, predominantly those of Indigenous people." This sentence is much less clear than the previously stable version, "As settlement expanded, thousands of Indigenous people died[/were killed] in frontier conflicts". This sentence suggests causation between settlement expansion to people dying in frontier conflicts. The suggested sentence however, suggests that settlement expansion created the abstract notion of "frontier conflicts" which was the cause of deaths. This is less clear because the phrase "frontier conflicts" is simply an abstract way of describing the process of settlement expansion and resulting fighting. It's clearer to simply describe the process and define it as "frontier conflict" as opposed to giving agency to an abstract concept, rather than the participants. Instead of using a metaphor and winding our way to the issue, it is much clearer to simply state that people were killed. Safes007 (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Safes007 My main interest was to also acknowledge the deaths of settlers in the frontier conflicts, given that they were a formative – and deadly – experience for Australians of both backgrounds; I sought to do this whilst also acknowledging that the larger share of deaths were Aboriginal Australians. I don't hold any contention beyond this. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 13:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Willthorpe. I might avoid mention of casualties altogether. "Thousands" isn't a very helpful indicator of the scale of things. I'd rather an educated estimate as to total deaths rather than just "thousands". One approach sans casualties: "As settlement expanded, frontier conflicts intensified, further displacing Indigenous people from their traditional lands." - PastelLilac (talk) 21:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The sourcing of the relevant section is dated (Bain Atwood 2003.) This is the most researched area of Australian History in the past 20 years and we can do better than this. Henry Reynolds, who is one of the most respected historians in the field, has recently published a second edition of Forgotten War (2022) and concluded that at least 30,000 Indigenous people were killed in fontier conflicts compared with 2,500 settlers. So I think we would be justified in stating "As settlement expanded, tens of thousands of Indigenous people and thousands of settlers died in frontier conflicts while settlers dispossessed surviving Indigenous peoples of most of their land." Or words to that effect.

The sourcing of the entire article is poor and I doubt that the article would retain its featured article status if it were reviewed today. I would be happy to work with other interested editors to progressively improve the sourcing. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 21:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I support this wording, with the replacement of "died" with "were killed" to keep the active voice. Safes007 (talk) 02:13, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I have replaced the dated source with the Reynolds source. I have slightly changed the wording to "settlers took possession of most of the traditional land of the surviving Indigenous groups.. etc". Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

"Took possession" is euphemistic and kind. HiLo48 (talk) 03:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. It's also using two words when the one word "dispossessed" would suffice. Safes007 (talk) 06:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Or "stole". HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I changed it because the wording didn't make sense: "Settlers dispossessed most of the traditional lands of the surviving Indigenous groups" is wrong. You can't dispossess land. You can either say: "Settlers dispossessed the surviving Indigenous groups of their traditional land" or "Settlers took possession of most of the traditional land of the surviving Indigenous groups" or "settlers dispossessed surviving Indigenous peoples of most of their land." I prefer the latter because it is the most concise. I suggested this above but I assumed @Safes007 objected to it given their changes. As for "stole"; this in an encyclopaedic article, not a political tract. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 08:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@PastelLilac@Willthorpe Any suggestions? Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:11, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

If your issue were actually with the incorrect use of the word "dispossess", you would have changed the sentence to Settlers dispossessed the surviving Indigenous groups of their traditional land—something you yourself suggested here. Yet this is not the change you actually made. Your claim that this in an encyclopaedic article, not a political tract reveals your true intentions, for your edit is entirely political in nature; you just believe your own politics are neutral, much as fish doubt the existence of water. Brusquedandelion (talk) 05:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

My issue was indeed with the incorrect usage and with the dated information. Have you actually read the discussion? I am happy to change the sentence to "Settlers dispossessed the surviving Indigenous groups of their traditional land" and see if we can get a consensus for this. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Were whole groups killed? As in there are extinct groups? Moxy🍁 16:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Many. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Was a rhetorical question. There is no evidence that any Indigenous groups in Australia are extinct. No guess work pls. Moxy🍁 22:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Moxy, I think you should have a read of Aboriginal Tasmanians. The population was reduced from potentially 15,000 down to just *47 individuals in the entire island*. Given there were "more than 60 clans" (quoting elsewhere in the article), even if somehow all 47 individuals were 1 from each clan, that's at least 13 Indigenous groups made extinct. GraziePrego (talk) 05:35, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Best not use the wrong terms genocide vs extinction very different things...best be up to date Dumas, Daisy (Aug 28, 2023). "Unesco removes 'hurtful' document claiming Tasmanian Aboriginal people 'extinct'". the Guardian. Retrieved Nov 7, 2024. Moxy🍁 05:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Suggesting a change as the half paragraph is odd to read and does not fully explain the sources about populations decline. Plus "tens of thousand of Indigenous people"? what does this mean? it that alot? is it 10% of the population or 60%......lets just say alot and let the linked article deal with stats.

Replace...

The indigenous population declined for 150 years following European settlement, mainly due to infectious disease. British colonial authorities did not sign any treaties with Aboriginal groups. As settlement expanded, tens of thousands of Indigenous people and thousands of settlers were killed in frontier conflicts. Settlers took possession of most of the traditional lands of the surviving Indigenous groups.

With someone like.....

As a consequence of European colonization, the Indigenous population declined immensely.This is mainly attributed to the transfer of European diseases and, to a lesser extent, conflicts with the colonial authorities, The expansion of settlements without any negotiated treaties led to violent conflicts known as the Australian frontier wars. These wars, lasting more than 100 years, were characterized by widespread killing on both sides along with the displacement of Indegenous peoples as settlers sought to assert control over the land.

Moxy🍁 07:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

That's good. HiLo48 (talk) 06:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not good, it's unsourced original research, factually wrong and much worse than what we already have.

"As a consequence of European colonization, the Indigenous population declined immensely." What does "immensely" mean? How can you possibly criticise "tens of thousands" as too vague (even though it is reliably sourced) but propose that we replace it with "immensely"? Can you cite a single reliable source that uses this term? And did Europe colonise Australia or did Britain?

"This is mainly attributed to the transfer of European diseases and, to a lesser extent, conflicts with the colonial authorities." Attributed by who? What is a European disease? Can you cite any medical studies which classify disease as "European"? What are "conflicts with colonial authorites"? Disputes over tax returns?

"The expansion of settlements without any negotiated treaties led to violent conflicts known as the Australian frontier wars." This is plain wrong. In fact the sources cited make it clear that treaties were probably impractical because Aboriginal groups did not have "chiefs" who could negotiate treaties and enforce them on their group. Moreover, Aboriginal culture did not have the concept of alienating land by agreement. And even more importantly, the history of the US shows, treaties would have been ignored by the colonists and they would have taken all the land they wanted anyway.

I won't go on. I agree that the current paragraph is most unsatisfactory. In particular, the second sentence isn't connected to the first and the third one to form a coherent paragraph. But I lost that battle in the previous discussion. I think @Moxy and @HiLo48 you need to read the sources cited carefully and have another look at the previous discussions on this issue. And some good general histories of Australia. I can recommend the Cambridge History of Australia, Macintyre, 2020 edition. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes understanding of the basics is needed "Indigenous and European Contact in Australia". Britannica Kids. Moxy🍁 13:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Somewhat more concise: "As a result of European colonisation, the Indigenous population declined significantly, primarily due to introduced diseases. The expansion of settlements without any formal treaties led to frontier conflicts characterised by widespread killing on both sides, along with the displacement of surviving Indigenous peoples from their traditional lands." - PastelLilac (talk) 09:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Much better written but see my comments above. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @Aemilius Adolphin. There's an overwhelming consensus among modern historians that Australia's actions against Aboriginals were genocidal.

• The Australian Museum
• Bringing Home Report
• Cambridge World History of Genocide

Beyond this, as others here have mentioned, the founder of settler-colonial studies, Patrick Wolfe, specifically cited Australia as the prototypical example of a genocidal settler society.

Genocide is also mentioned in other British settler colony articles, including the United States, Canada, etc. Perhaps the last major historian to deny that genocide occurred is the conservative Keith Windschuttle and his works are no longer deeply influential on the subject of Australia's relations with its native people. Requesting that your edit is self-reverted. There's a pretty clear consensus that these edits are due. (I count 6v1 on this page.) Your edits are coming across as an attempt to whitewash unsavory aspects of Australian history. The claim that a majority of deaths were of "unintentional disease" are also refuted by Ned Blackhawk in the forementioned Cambridge World History of Genocide. OntologicalTree (talk) 23:46, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure how I got pinged...but whatever. As I stated on your user page Tree...Must understand reconciliation in Australia is not at the point of acknowledgment yet in the general public eye. It's not about whitewashing.... but what society has recognized. READ ME The stewards of this article find it a hard topic to tackle so ignore it. That said they're society is moving forward on the idea. An RfC where to take place it would be included as the general Wikipedia community can see its merits and the overwhelming academic support for the idea.Moxy🍁 23:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

As I said on your Talk page, the debate has moved past Windschuttle a long time ago but there is still academic debate on whether there was genocidal intent, particularly by colonial authorities, and whether the actions of individual settlers amounted to genocide. If you haven't read Henry Reynolds' The Forgotten War (2022 edition) I can highly recommend it as a more nuanced assessment. And, as I suggested, if you want to propose one or two specific factual sentences with reliable citations for discussion on the Talk page then I think you might be able to find a consensus for them. For example, I wouldn't be adverse to a sentence in the frontier expansion section such as "many historians conclude that acts of genocide by settlers were committed during the frontier conflicts, although the question of genocidal intent is still debated." Nor would I oppose a sentence in the discussion of the Stolen generations along the lines of "the HRC called the forced removal of Indigenous children an act of genocide" or words to that effect. But rather than trying to ram home your preferred wording despite objections from other editors, I think the best way forward is to seek consensus for one or two sepcific sentences in the relevant parts of the article. One of my concerns with your current wording is that it is written in stilted English and needs to be better integrated into the article. I prefer my wording but let's wait and see what others think. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:15, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, there's similar scholars who deny that genocide occurred in Canada or the United States, yet those respective articles do not "equalize" their opinions between those who say "yes" and those who say "no". That's not how WP:NPOV works. It works by the WP:WEIGHT of sources. Every major Australian history association, museum, and the national government recognizes the events as genocide. If we're using this standard then no event in history (outside of the Holocaust) could be classified as genocide. OntologicalTree (talk) 00:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

As I have said, it's all a matter of how we word things. And policy is that a seriously contested view in academic sources should not be treated as fact and opposing views should be given due weight: WP:VOICE. If you have specific objections to my proposed wording please state them and put your proposed changes up here for discussion. And give others chance to express their views. By the way, on second thoughts it might be easier to achieve a consensus if we separate the genocide discussion from the discussion on frontier conflict. if you agree, would you mind moving the discussion to the genocide heading? Thanks Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

No mention of "genocide" in the article

I'm disappointed but not surprised that genocide is not mentioned in this article. Patrick Wolfe described Australia as an archetypical, settler-colonial state that was founded upon genocide. Yet this is mentioned nowhere in the article!

https://australian.museum/learn/first-nations/genocide-in-australia/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by DerApfelZeit (talk • contribs) 00:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Should the article state that Indigenous Australians were victims of genocide?

There is an ongoing editoral dispute (including on the talk page above) on whether Australia's actions against Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders can be described in the article as genocidal or simply the product of disease and mutual conflicts.

Option #1:

These early acts of settler colonialism began the genocide of Indigenous Australians, which aimed at eradicating the cultures, religions, languages, and people of both Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders..As settlement expanded, tens of thousands of Indigenous people and thousands of settlers were killed in frontier conflicts while settlers dispossessed surviving Indigenous peoples of most of their land. Survivors of the exterminations were frequently forced to convert to Christianity, confined to Aboriginal reserves, and were not provided with any legally recognized form of cultural rights, as British-descended colonizers did not sign any treaties with Aboriginal groups.

References

Option #2:

The indigenous population declined for 150 years following European settlement, mainly due to infectious disease. British colonial authorities did not sign any treaties with Aboriginal groups. As settlement expanded, tens of thousands of Indigenous people and thousands of settlers were killed in frontier conflicts while settlers dispossessed surviving Indigenous peoples of most of their land.

References

Option #3:

As a consequence of colonization, the Indigenous population declined of up to 90%. This is mainly attributed to the transfer of diseases and, to a lesser extent, land loss and conflicts with the settlers. The expansion of settlements without any negotiated treaties led to violent conflicts known as the Australian frontier wars. These wars, lasting more than 100 years, were characterized by widespread killing on both sides and the displacement of Indigenous peoples as settlers sought to assert control over the land. The conflicts have variously been described as terrorism, ethnocide, and genocide, against the Indigenous peoples.

References

A consensus could not be reached so I am asking for non-involved editors to comment. OntologicalTree (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 2. Option 1 gets the timeline wrong, the lack of treaties existed from the start. It is unclear what the "early acts of settler colonialism" refers to, but if it refers to the initial settlement, this was not aimed at eradicating the cultures etc. of any particular group. The initial settlement also certainly didn't affect the Torres Strait Islanders, who live very far away from the early settlements. The RfC opening statement is also quite poor, the "Australia's actions" were a mixture of a number of different actors, and both Aboriginal groups and Torres Strait Islanders are part of Australia. CMD (talk) 00:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)
• Option 1: There is a historical consensus that genocide occurred in the context of Australian history. The Australian Museum lists it as such, the Bringing Them Home Report does as well, and so does the recently published (2023) The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Genocide Perspectives V: A Global Crime, Australian Voices (2017), which was published by the University of Sydney Press, states that (on p.62) that "the academic consensus now acknowledges that genocide is an apt descriptor for the Australian aboriginal experience." The government of Australia also labels its own historic actions as genocidal. There will always be historians who deny X or Y is genocidal. (Outside of the Holocaust.) The question is whether a large majority classify it as such per WP: NPOV and WP:DUE. The bar here is indisputably met. OntologicalTree (talk) 00:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2: I would prefer to keep the current wording and see if we can build a consensus towards wording on the genocide issue. This issue was still under discussion on the Talk page. The failure of one editor to get their preferred version accepted within a couple of hours of first trying to include it in the article does not equal a failure to gain consensus. I proposed alternative wording to try to meet this editor half way yet this editor chose not to engage in consensus building among interested editors which is usually the first step before you go to a RfC. This is a complex issue and there are dozens of reliable academic sources which discuss this in a more nuanced and accurate way. I am sure that if we had given this discussion the time it deserves we could have come uo with something much better than the two proposed options. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3 the option I created... As I believe it reflects best the sources and gives a quick juvenile introduction to the topic as you would see at "Indigenous and European Contact in Australia". Britannica Kids. ....with the addition of adult words like genocide.Moxy🍁 02:35, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• I'm leaning toward the intent of Option 1 but not the current wording. I cannot see how, in 2024, we can acknowledge the impact of coloniaism and at the same time continue using dated linguistic constructions like Aboriginals. I don't currently have the spoons to work on the wording, just registering my half-!vote at this stage. ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email · global) 07:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 3. The option suggested by Moxy is as comprehensive as you can get in a singular paragraph and it links to articles dedicated to its mentioned subjects, while also retaining a neutral tone. Option 2 is fine, but it fails to effectively summarize the full extent of the conflicts and their impact on the Indigenous peoples and settlers.

I would like to address Option 1 separate from the other options presented. As a fourth generation Australian, I am personally sick of the rhetoric that OntologicalTree is trying to have accepted. Where shall I begin?

• It places undue emphasis on the settlers and British colonization The entire paragraph is thick with the negative connotations so common in degradation of foreign colonization and this era of historical hindsight apologetics. Easily fails WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT.
• It misleads readers by implying that the events of the Stolen Generations occurred directly after or during the frontier conflicts, thereby presenting an incorrect timeline cobbled together with WP:SYNTH. For those unfamiliar with Australian history, the Stolen Generations is widely acknowledged to have begun in the early 1900s, whereas the frontier conflicts started in 1788.
• It creates the implication that there was little to zero attempt by the British and their descendants to create treaties with the Indigenous peoples. The British did falsely claim terra nullius by legally declaring the Indigenous peoples as "fauna" so they could invalidate Britain's first requirement for occupation, which was that if there was an existing population, Indigenous or otherwise, land should only be obtained through negotiation. However, the problem is that prior to settlement, the Indigenous peoples of Australia had zero form of officially recognized government or judicial system amongst themselves because of the nomadic and kinship-centric nature of their tribes. Additionally, the Indigenous peoples didn't speak English and operated on a significantly different culture to the rest of the civilised world at the time. No centralized governing body means the British had no legal entity to formalize an agreement with, and the cultural differences and physical distance between the various groups and territories of Indigenous peoples meant that even if the British were to create a blanket legal structure for them, they had no guarantee that the terms of such would be satisfactory or even followed by the various groups.

Yeah, I had a lot to say about Option 1. To put it simply, I vote for Option 3 and I find Option 1 unsuitable. Sirocco745 (talk) 07:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Blend of options 2 and 3. For brevity's sake I prefer 2. While 3 is more comprehensive, it's quite repetitive. - PastelLilac (talk) 07:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

• Option 2 is broadly correct, providing a historical consensus-based summation and linking to the frontier wars article where the subject can be broached with appropriate sensitivity. Will Thorpe (talk) 09:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

I have added a 3rd choice as the first 2 do not really reflect the souces in my view. Ping thoses already here @OntologicalTree:, @Chipmunkdavis:, @Aemilius Adolphin: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moxy (talk • contribs) 01:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I am attracted to @PastelLilac's idea of a blend of Option 2 and 3. For example we might change Option 2 to: "The indigenous population declined for 150 years following European settlement, mainly due to infectious disease. British colonial authorities did not sign any treaties with Aboriginal groups. As settlement expanded, tens of thousands of Indigenous people and thousands of settlers were killed in frontier conflicts which many historians argue included acts of genocide by settlers. Settlers dispossessed surviving Indigenous peoples of most of their land."

One of the difficulties I have is that the lack of treaties should be mentioned because it was unusual in British colonisation, but we should avoid the implication that treaties were a realistic option and would have avoided conflict and acts of genocide. One only need look at what happened in North America and New Zealand (where there were treaties) to see that the idea is very naive. More importantly, I am not aware of any expert in the field who supports such a simplistic notion. Another problem I have is that this is a very high level article on Australia and whatever we say needs to be concise and not worded in a way which is simplistic and misleading. Details and nuances can be followed up in linked articles. A third issue is that I don't think we need to squeeze everything into one paragraph and one section of the article. For example, the section on Colonial Expansion states: "From 1886, Australian colonial governments began removing many Aboriginal children from their families and communities, justified on the grounds of child protection and forced assimilation policies. We could add: "The Human Rights Commission later described this as genocidal." with an appropriate citation. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 10:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The lack of treaties is quite unusual! If you look up at my vote for the options, I provide some extra context as to the difficulties. There is something else I didn't mention though, and that is the motives of Captain Cook himself. Australia had already been probed by the French and Dutch, and the British desperately needed a new place to dump their prisoners after America said "no, screw you" to them. Australia was too good to pass up and time was of the essence for claiming it as a prospective settlement. As such, the leading theory is that Captain Cook intentionally classified the Indigenous peoples as "fauna" so they could subvert standard British protocol. Here's a source! [5] Sirocco745 (talk) 10:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The lack of treaties is unusual, but I agree with Aemilius Adolphin that this shouldn't be presented as a core reason for death and displacement. Even without treaties, there were attempts by officials at various to reduce conflict; they were often ignored. Option 3 is much better than Option 1, but it is not clear what the core issue that needs to be solved is. CMD (talk) 10:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the lack of treaties isn't really relevant to this paragraph, I just wanted to add my own knowledge to the conversation for those who didn't know. As for the core issue in question, I honestly don't know what was "wrong" with the original paragraph, but this is a good opportunity regardless to revise it. Sirocco745 (talk) 10:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The core issue is that a couple of editors wanted the article to explicitly state that "Aboriginal Australians were the victims of Genocide" but didn't have the patience to seek consensus on appropriate wording. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 10:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Nettelbeck, Amanda; Ryan, Lyndall (March 31, 2020). "Frontier Violence in the Nineteenth-Century British Empire". The Cambridge World History of Violence. Cambridge University Press. p. 227–245. doi:10.1017/9781316585023.012. the failure of treaties to secure lasting peace led ultimately to military campaigns that were openly acknowledged as warfare. Moxy🍁 13:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Invalid RfC

Hello all

Someone seems to have added a new option to this RfC after people have already voted on the original two options. @OntologicalTree Would you mind withdrawing this RfC in order to give other interested editors sufficient time to propose other options? I also suggest that if you just let others have their say on the Talk page we should be able to come up with consensus wording which avoids the need for a RfC altogether. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Zero need for withdrawal normal evolution process of an RFC sometimes. Editors that were already here have been informed of a new selection as discussed above early in the process. Moxy🍁 02:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Normally a RfC is only initiated when there is a failure to reach a consensus after a genuine attempt. Do you really think interested editors were given sufficient time to discuss and reach a compromise on any of these proposed options? Or to come up with their own? Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 02:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Most RFC happen because multiple good faith attempts with reliable sources have been made to change the text to no avail and people feel the reasoning is not substantiated. It's simply a way of getting those uninvolved involved. This is not a scary process.... nor should it be blocked. In giant RFCs there may be multiple suggestions of change. This is a fluid process not static. I would suggest we see the sources for each paragraph though. Moxy🍁 02:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't find it scary, I find it shambolic, unnecessary and designed to reduce discussion to three badly drafted options. And your suggestion that I am trying to shut down the argument is plain wrong. I am trying to give editors time to come up with alternative, better worded, options which better reflect recent scholarship. By the way is the Bain Attwood article you cite available through wikilibrary? I can't access it so can't verify that you are accurately summarising it. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 02:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You can access it through your Alma mater here Moxy🍁 02:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I have read it. You use this article as a source for your statement, "The expansion of settlements without any negotiated treaties led to violent conflicts known as the Australian frontier wars." But Attwood doesn't say this. The closest I can find is: "As I have noted, they [the British] simply took the land without any negotiation, let alone any treaties; and they used naked force to secure their possession but were unable or unwilling to acknowledge publicly that this was so, for reasons that were moral, psychological and legal." He doesn't say the lack of treaties caused the violent conflict or the frontier wars. It was the spread of settlement and aboriginal resistance to this that caused the conflict. Indeed treaties are usually signed after a period of violent conflict. The article isn't about this at all, it is about the ways the British tried to justify colonisation and present-day denialism of dispossession. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Always think it's best to summarize then plagiarize. To me it's pretty clear they did not negotiate they just took the land by force.... thus the Indigenous population fought back and there were wars .... related to the source in way of Terra nullius#Australia. They're unwilling to talk to them let alone negotiate treaties just forcibly removed. I can provide multitude of sources ... as others have above..and assuming you can as well. But this one explains very well in the context of justification. That said the genocide article needs a section about denialism. Moxy🍁 03:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think none of the three is ideal, with reasons given by others. I am not sure any genocide should be attributed to the lack of a treaty/agreement. Any such agreement might have helped but it could just as easily have been ignored. I cannot see a direct link between 'agreement' and 'no genocide'. Better phrasing in the article might help though. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

"Why doesn't Australia have an indigenous treaty?". BBC News. May 24, 2017. Retrieved Nov 8, 2024. The absence of a treaty was cited by Mr Arthur as a crucial and aggravating factor in relations with the first inhabitants of the island, the scene of some of the worst treatment inflicted on Aborigines by British colonists. Moxy🍁 08:14, 8 November 2024 (UTC)